A Conversation with Asisa Kadiri: Debut Novel, Nigerian Mythology & What makes a good horror film?

Selfie of Asisa Kadiri

It’s 5pm now and me and Asisa agreed to meet up in a small cafe in the middle of New Cross. One of my favourite places in South London. It was actually her first time here which I was really excited about! I was also excited to speak to her. I first came across her work when I downloaded Substack, about a year ago. The first piece of hers that I read was “The 70s cult resurgance” and I immediately fell in love with her writing. It was so insightful and informative, discussing the parallels between the 1970s politics and the 2020s politics. How cult’s are often a refuge to those who are made vulnerable because of the politics of their country. 

Today we discussed her debut novel, Second Soil, the parallels between her different writing styles, Nigerian mythology and religions and Horror!

Where are you from? Like are area ethnicity and stuff like that 

Asisa: So I live in Hertfordshire, for the people who don’t know that’s like slightly north of London. My dad is from Edo state and my mum is Itsekiri. I can’t remember the rest of the question… 

(I laugh) 

 I’m twenty two, I’m a writer, freelance journalist, soon to be a novelist hopefully! And my name's Asisa, I didn’t say my name. 

When did you first start writing? 

Asisa: I first started writing in my second year of uni. I remember it so specifically because I was going through a really, really really low time. In that period before I started writing. I think it was the Easter holiday, I was like I need an outlet. Especially because I had a lot of socio-political opinions and thoughts and I was like okay, this would be something for me to channel my energy on and make it out of this depressive slump. And then also it would be cool to like express my opinions and I was like ooh I actually like this. I’m going to keep going. I started my blog in 2023 and I still got it going. (Her issue) 

 Which I really love aswell

Asisa: Thank you! 

 How did you find out about Substack? 

Asisa: I found out about Substack from my friend Doria. She's also a writer. I think she mentioned it to me because I was asking her, ‘do you know any writing platforms?’ She was like ‘Substack’. And Substack was way smaller back then. Now it’s become more of a social media app, I feel. At that time it was really small. 

When did you fall in love with literature? 

Asisa: ooh I want to say, I’ve always been a humanities babe. I’ve always been English, RS, and history. I’m going to say GCSEs. I remember English being one of my favourite subjects, I love to analyse things so much. One of my favourite books that’s omg I can’t remember the name of, you know it the George and Lenny one, it sounds like I don’t love the book I promise you I do (laughing). 

(laughing) Wait, what’s it about? 

Asisa: um they go to this farm, and then their working on this farm and then George likes-

Of mice and Men! Isn't that John Steinbeck? 

Asisa: Yeah! I really enjoyed that, I think it was one of the first times I was encouraged to properly  analyse literature. And I realised how much there is. There is so much meat in the way people write. It’s so interesting to unpack, literally every little detail. Especially because naturally I feel like I’m such an over thinker. So it’s a good way to use that. 

You are 

In terms of topics, honestly social media. Like it’s so bad- 

 I actually don’t think that’s bad at all that’s the generation we live in

Asisa: I have a folder in each social media app called ‘things I want to write about’. And I save anything I see interesting in those folders. So when it comes time to Monday. And I think ‘what do I want to write about’ I have stuff.

So you write on Monday? 

Asisa: Yeah

Wow! And these aren’t like small essays. These are very informative, references all of that. 

Asisa: Sometimes it feels like, you know when people are like maths brain, English brain.  I’m okay at maths but like GCSE level. All of my brain power went to just words. So I’m really good at typing, really good at writing quickly. So I feel like doing the Substack on Monday has never really been that much of a struggle, the only times it’s been hard is when I’m really not in the mood. But I keep consistent with the Monday thing. It also just makes me feel 

You are the first person I subscribed to on Substack, and I was like this girl really writes every week. They don’t play! So how do you remain so consistent and inspired to continue to write? 

Asisa: I think generally speaking, I have a slight problem with consistency. So I think when I first started the Substack, because writing is like the main thing that I actually genuinely really really love. I want to do it career wise and in life. I was like if you want to be consistent in anything it has to be this. It has to be the one thing. And then also it’s definitely good practice . Because I have definitely progressed,  in terms of my writing ability and vocabulary. And that’s what keeps me inspired because you're just going to improve if you keep writing. 

good to know that I’ve never not been consistent with it. But yeah that’s what keeps me inspired, also I just love it. 

We need to talk about your debut novel! Do you have a title that you want to say? 

Asisa: So for now it’s called ‘Second Soil’ I don’t know if this title is going to stick. The only reason I chose this title was because I was trying to apply for a writing competition. And for some of them you get  an agent as a reward if you win. I thought that would be great. So I had to apply and the deadline was the day I applied. I’ll explain why in a bit, but it might change. 

When did you realise that you wanted to write a novel? That this was the next step in your writing career? 

Asisa: Years ago. I think I’ve always wanted to write a book. I think when I was really little, you know when they say that you get in touch with your inner child in your 20s. So when I was really little I loved writing so much and I think I went through a faze of not really thinking about it. And then after a depressive faze I realised omg you love writing. So this is going to be your thing. But I’ve always wanted to write a book, I feel like it’s always been there. I think it was always going to happen at some point. It was kind of inevitable. It was going to happen inevitably. But I think the moment I truly realised was two years ago when I properly started writing because I was like this is the thing you're working towards. I didn’t think it was going to be fantasy at first. I thought it would be non fiction. But because I do non fiction every week, I was like I might aswell do it. And I like fantasy so much. 

So I have to ask, I love what African writers do with fantasy, what they do with fantasy especially in the last 5/10 years is so interesting. You know reslly since like things fall apart. Even since that point African writers have done some interesting stuff with fantasy

Asisa: It's actually a really recent wave I’m finding. Generally speaking I wouldn’t say it’s recent in a sense that people have always done it. But I think people are finally starting to appreciate fantasy for what it is. I’m also finding that because of where we are, the general

gen z mindset around sociopolitics, people are clocking where some fantasies do touch on that. Where some fantasies support certain narratives or are against certain narratives. For example I love ‘Game of Thrones’ but they have a white saviour problem. I really like reading African fantasy because it gets to reframe the narrative in a real way. It tells stories from the perspective of the black people as opposed to the white people. It’s all a lot more familiar. You enjoy it more when you resonate more with the stories and the culture. 

 What's your favourite African fantasy? 

Asisa: I can’t remember, my memory, I’m going to find it

 Do you track your books? 

Asisa: I don’t track no, I’m literally currently reading it so I’m genuinely confused on why my brain is not allowing me to remember. This is driving me insane because I’m literally reading it. It’s not necessarily an African fantasy but the author is black American, so it is from a black perspective. One thing I really want to read is ‘The waining’. And I really do want to read it because it touches on the same mythology that my book is based off of. 

Did you get it recently? 

Asisa: Yeah, I got it a while ago but I’ve been reading it on and off. My reading consistency is so… That’s one of my goals for this year. It’s like If a musician was like I don’t really listen to music. 

I feel like that’s received better though. Like if they made good music, you could be like well they are allowed to not listen to music. 

Asisa: I guess but it feels a bit phony. Like I’m a fantasy writer who doesn’t read fantasy, it’s like how tapped in are you? Sorry I'm still trying to find this book. I apologise for my brain (laughing). It’s called the something , it’s by Octavia Butler 

The parable of the sower! 

(We laugh) 

Asisa: Oh my gosh it’s been killing me! 

 That’s like one of the most famous books , I read that like two years ago, it’s life changing 

Asisa: I like the way she’s observing our current reality and weaving it into the storyline, I really do enjoy reading her perspective. Especially because it is set in the future. It’s sometimes interesting to see how we may end up. I really do like that it’s black author because I feel like that perspevtive is overlooked. And I do think that this perspective would be much more insightful , especially because it is a black woman. Just because you are forced to reckon with a lot. 

I remember she said that she classed herself as an Afrofutuist , instead of a historian which I think is quite interesting. 

Asisa: I think my book is Afro futurism, just because it is set in the future. But I’m really enjoying this book, you know sometimes when you're reading a book it feels like you're coasting. But every time I read this I feel that I’m learning a new lesson every chapter. 

 You spoke about mythology. I wanted to know what mythology you're looking at for your novel? 

Asisa: The main mythology I’m looking at is the Dahomey mythology of Benin. And before the end of the 18th century it was Dahumey Kingdom which is where modern day Benin is.

That’s where this religion/ mythology was founded, but because of French colonialisation the religion including the mythology is mostly lost. I was looking at west African religions, specifically those in the Nigerian area. But because I’m Benin and not Yoruba , I didn’t want to muse Yoruba religions especially because most authors have already done that. 

One of my friends told me that Benin people have fairies in their mythology and they are called Aziza fairies and because my name is Asisa I was like oh my gosh it’s perfect and I love fairies too.  One of their main creative entities, their version of god is androgynous. Their child could either be depicted as man or woman, Mawu Lisa is the deity. I absolutely love this aspect, it really subverts the idea that gender binaries are inherit to African values. It really demonstrates that pre colonial African values do have a different way of seeing things. I really enphasised looking into religions or mythologies  that were eco spiritual. Because I really am eco-spiritual, I’m really passionate about nature. I feel I have very animist principles so I really wanted something that reflected that. The gods in this religion are very different from abrahamic  religions where it’s less focused on punishment and reward. It’s more focused on connection and the environment around you, which is one of the main things I was looking for. 

How does this connect to your novel? 

Asisa: In this book, the gods are given a few human incarnations and that’s what they use to help rule the society that they're currently in. The society that they are in is ruled by the magical population. So it’s ruled by the gods in human form and the fairies. And then there are regular human beings. You have the descendants of the capitalist of our current days, and climate plunderers who are trying to restore capitalism. But one of my main goals writing this book is to become an expert on Dahumey mythology because it’s such a nice learning experience. Especially because it is lost. 

Do you think you would ever engage with the Benin religion fully, after doing your research for it?

Asisa: To be honest I feel like I already did. A lot of the west african indigenous spirituality are very much the same story but different names. I was very much in tune with the Nigerian Benin form of mythology. So when I started learning about it more it felt really familiar. So yes I would engage with religion because I kind of already am. 

 What are the main differences that you're seeing when writing your essays in comparison to writing your novel, in yourself as a writer?

Asisa: I think when I'm writing the essays it feels more like I'm writing for the audience. But when I'm writing the book it feels like it's coming from me more. . A. Because it is fantasy I can just make up anything and it's all actually coming from my brain. B. There isn’t an audience yet, so I feel more creative freedom. When I’m writing my essays, because they are not fiction I have to be factually correct so there's that critea. Compared to fantasy I feel like I can just do anything which is a lot more freeing. 

How do you feel like your journalism interacts with your novel?

Asisa: There is a shift I have noticed. Obviously I live in the UK and prior to the last six months my focus was very much on UK and US politics. But as I've been moving on and reframing my perspective towards Africa more specifically West Africa. It's been reflected in my journalism as well. I started seeking out more stories from Nigeria, as opposed to more western stories. I started reading more non-western news outlets. I shifted to Al-jezeera or Middle East Eye. Just shifting to a more non western perspective and storytelling. When writing this  fantasy novel , I have  become very focused on reframing the narrative around Indignous spirituality, afrofuturism and thinking about what would really benefit Africa. I realised the journalism I’m engaging with reflects the journalism I'm writing. How does that contribute to my shifted perspective in favour of African narratives? 

Now one of my goals is to stay in Nigeria for a while and write. I think it would be more interesting to me. To learn about things I'm connected to, things my family is connected to. Especially because quite a lot of my family still live in Nigeria. It would be really interesting to know what affects them. 

 Would you say that this novel feels like a homecoming?

Asisa: Yeah! I think that's a really good way of putting it. There isnt a strong Nigerian culture where I live. The Dahumey Kingdom was very intertwined with Nigerian politics at one point so it feels familiar in a different way. Not because I live there but because I feel comfortable. 

 I love that art can do that, it can bring you back to a place. Have you been to Nigeria before? 

Asisa: I visited when i was two

It's crazy that in your 20s you're exploring it. 

Asisa: I do plan to go back this year-

For December? 

Asisa: (laughing) Naturally!

Okay publishing wise, are you looking to be independent or work with a publisher?

Asisa: It depends on how social media goes. I got a call from a publishing service the other day. But the issue with this is you do have to pay for services as opposed to a publishing house. If  the tik tok I started does really well, then publishing won't be a problem because I can just publish independently. But I think if not, traditional publishing would be the way to go. But I think getting a book deal from a publishing house would be such a dream come true!

I wanted to ask about classifying yourself as an author, especially with a lot of migrant authors they tend to market them as either or. Ocean Voung released a book a couple years ago and he tends to be marketed as this migrant writer that talks about these ‘two worlds’ and your book does not seem to follow that narrative. So I wanted to know how you would classify yourself in terms of the identity politics that exists for migrant writers? Asisa: I would say Nigerian-British. To market myself as solely a Nigerian author feels a bit baity. I am connected to Nigeria in a very real way and always seeking more connection. But to say I am just a Nigerian author feels like it's not the entire story. But despite growing up  in the UK i dont necessarily claim Great Britain as a nation. But I feel like it does inform the way I'm going to tell the story. 

Okay so why don’t you claim Britian? 

Asisa: The damage it's done to other nations. The existence of the British empire, especially the role it has played in Nigerian politics and economics. It's depressing to me. One of my parents was telling me how the naira used to be equal to the pound. Which isn’t that long ago. Great Britain as a nation makes it hard to be proud of. I dont think I would ever market myself as a British author, though I am one. Because it feels more brugungly so. Obviously there are parts of the UK that I like, like the Black British subculture that is something I can be proud of. But that is why I would say Nigerian British as opposed to simply British. 

When writing this novel what is something you have learnt about yourself? 

Asisa: That's very interesting. I think I have realised how much animist principles I do have and my love for nature. Which is the main thing I have noticed. 

What's something people wouldnt expect about you? 

Asisa: Okay, fun fact…I  play darts. I really want to be good! I went to a pub once and I played darts and I was like this is the funnest game ever! I have a dart board in my room and I want to get really good at darts. Its a really big goal of mine. I just think playing in a dart competition against all the guisers could be so ‘one step for black womankind’.

That is actually so fun. Okay so what is your faviroute essay you have written so far? 

Asisa: The first one that I really like is called ‘Weeping Mother’ . It's about space colonisation and how it's really destroying the moon. I really enjoyed that one and I think it was a real turning point. It was talking about the spiritual ramifications of space colonisation, since people only really speak about it spacially and ethically. But I think one of the most interesting things about writing this essay specifically was realising how essential the moon's role is in different mythologies and spitual practices. Even as someone who believes in astrology I think about the moon a lot. In some traditional Nigerian beliefs the moon is very important. Colonisation tends to introduce certain belief systems and erase others. It feels

disrespectful in a spiritual way to colonise the moon. 

Yeah, and that's really niche aswell. 

Asisa: I think that's what I really liked about it. Because sometimes it feels like I'm always telling the news so when I come up with a concept that's when I love the essay so much. 

Okay I remember the name now, ‘Consumable dreams’ I really like that one it's about escapism. It's about how prior to the cost of living , luxury was so different. Whereas now because a lot more people  are struggling financially  across the globe. I feel like our dreams have gotten progressively smaller. Seeing people buy whatever they want for their fridge has now become a new dream and a new form of escapism. 

Finally, I really need to know, Horror to Horror girl…Your top five horrors!

Asisa: I watched Horror films before I watched any other films. When I was younger I needed the shock value. For anyone listening if you have anxiety, Horror movies are a great outlet. I have realised when I'm anxious I know why, which is really soothing for me. Number 1, ‘The Conjuring 2’ I love that movie so much. I love the foggy rainy England weather. The plot is very interesting. I'm going to say 'As above so below’ and because I am going to Paris for fete i'm going to try to visit the cattle cones. I thought that movie was great, especially doing philosophy at uni. The movie really touches on ‘Dante's Inferno Seven layers of hell’. It's filmed with a really indie vibe, it's not really high budget production which makes it feel so real. Third, I'm going to say sinister, I love that movie. There is something really creepy about it, I found that movie genuinely scary. Next I'm going to say either ‘Midsummer' or ‘Hereditary’. ‘Midsummer’ , I think the plot is more interesting but ‘Heriditary’ is better as a horror movie. 

 ‘Midsummer ‘creeps up on you though, because when it got to the end I thought this just got scary.

Asisa: Fifth I guess I can't remember from the top of my head. What would be your top five?

 ‘His House’, that was beautiful. You need to watch it. ‘Scream one’ which is the only scream that matters because after that it’s just repetitive. I'm going to say 'The Exorcist two’ because that had me shook and shout out to Haiti. I still need to see ‘Hereditary’, but ‘Midsummer’ is like everything is cool and then she's burning.

Asisa: One of my faviroute things about ‘Midsummer' and people say this a lot is that you get brain washed with her. As I'm watching it I'm like ‘oh the boyfriends dead, fairs he's terrible’ But then it's like he got killed in a really brutal way. Should we be supporting that? And obviously the cult’s terrible but there are some things they do and your thinking is justified, which is code red. 

 I can't believe we didnt mention Jordan Peele

Asisa: Oh my gosh, ‘Us’, ‘Us’ I love ‘Us’ so much

 Oh okay that's your one? I havent even seen ‘Us’ yet, I'm a fake fan. 

Asisa: I just love everything about it, the metaphors, the symbolism, the acting and the plot twist! It's actually one of my faviroute movies. 

 I just love how he does horror. I think how he does it is so interesting. I remember he said in an interview that he takes people's scariest fears and just magnifies them. I think that with ‘Nope’ the horror is going to take us time to understand. It's still something we are trying to understand. Whereas with ‘Get out’ and ‘Us’ it's so in your face what the horror is. Asisa: I think I may have to watch ‘Nope' again because I genuinely did not understand it the first time. 

Me neither, it took me a while 

Asisa: ‘Get out’ i’ve watched five times. His horrors arent these regurgitated storylines. ‘Family moves into a house, oh no there's an entity, family moves out the house, the entity is stuck to the child’. Which is such a common trope which I love but Peele doesn’t do that. Because its from a black perspective you get all the racial tensions mixed with Horror in a very material way. But it's not in the sense of showing black pain to the point where it feels too insensitive. I like the way he does it , because it's sensitive and he's not showing you black people suffering over and over and over again as the point of the horror. One I have just remembered out of nowhere, ‘The autopsy of Jane Doe’, it's quite niche but I really enjoy it. It's about  a dead lady and their peforming an autopsy on her but then she's alive. I watched when I was like twelve. 

 Okay what makes a good horror film? 

Asisa: Okay so there has to be an element of realism in it. I think this goes back to Jordan Peele where he touches on people's fears in a political sense. Like ‘Us’, one of the main underlyings of this movie is the widespread fear of immigration and how it's like a ‘disease’ in the US. The US frames immigrants as people who are coming to ‘steal their lives’ and Peele touches on that. So for me a good Horror movie is definitely one that takes elements of the real world and exposes them for how terrifying they really are. But I really enjoy things that feel more metaphorical than they do literal. Which is why I really love ‘As above so below’ I really love things that have philosophical implications and messaging. Also, a good script. I think a lot of horror movies do not have good writing because they rely so much on gore. Good soundtrack, I love when they have a 1950s song and it's the sweetest song you’ll ever hear and it's someone getting brutally murdered over the song. I just love the juxtaposition. That is an element I’ve seen a lot that I love.